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Detonation in 2004 225 DI

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  • Detonation in 2004 225 DI

    I have owned twin 2004 225hp DI's since new in 2004. They are on a 2004 CapeHorn27. I had approx 1600 hours on them pretty much flawless until last year when I blew cylinder 4 in my starboard due to detonation. I heard it pretty much only during the high torque rpm's about 3500 coming up on plane and it was very loud. Once it became obvious that it was time I removed the head and found the piston top degraded down to the rings. I have no clue how this engine ran like that but it shows how strong these engines were. Local machine shop who resleeved said his opinion was lack of lubrication so I replaced the enitire oil ***sembly/hoses/fuel to oil check valve/all recirc oil fittings. I also sent injector 4 to DFI technoligies and had it rebuilt. I rebuilt the engine and the sound came right back (loud rattling at same rpm's of 3500) and I was back to square 1. Pulled off head and found both cylinder 4 and 6 locator pins on pistons (Top pin) had discharged allowing the rings to rotate and break off, I had used WSM kit for rebuild. Now I purchased a used block that had 130 psi in every cylinder (Confirmed myself at first start up) so I ruled the block itself out as the cause this time. I also exchanged all 6 injectors and the EMM with the other motor (Starboard EMM and injectors went to the port engine and vise versa). I figured if it was the computer or injectors the issue would follow. All injectors were placed in proper cylinders so no need for programming. I ran her up tp 3500rpm's and still clear as day detonation in starboard motor. So its not the injectors/EMM/Oil sytem/ or block itself, new thermostats (Updated ones that run hotter) with the new style spark plugs, rebuilt blow off valves, new water pumps. I then swapped fuel manifolds to see if maybe lines had a clog but issue stayed with the starboard motor. I am willing to swap part by part until the isuue moves to the port engine and then can be identified. My main question here is can an electrical issue be the culprit or is it most likely a lean fuel condition? can it be the coil that operates cylinders 4 and 6? I dont lose power when running so I would think electrical would be ruled out. Can a bad PDP cause detonation? What the heck could be causing it? Fuel is fresh 89 octane. Same props have been on the engines since new and in perfect condition. Nothing heavy has added weight to the boat either. No codes were activated at anytime in the engine either. Thanks for the help, Dave

    Update:I noticed that there is a large amount of bubbles coming up from around the engine (water turbulence) at idle suggesting an exhaust leak somewhere in the mid section. Other engine does not have this so all exhaust is coming out properly through propellor hub, could it be possible that there is an exhaust hole in the midsection causing the hot gases to build up and not exit properly and keeping the exhaust gases in the cylinder therefore causing the detonation?
    Last edited by Got Twins; 03-17-2017, 04:07 PM.

  • #2
    Dave, I've held off with a answer to your problem due to the fact that I retired in 1991 and have no knowledge of your engine's design. However, in the past, detonation/pre-ignition which results in the meltdown of the top portion of the pistons was/is due to one or more of the following conditions.

    1 - Ignition out of time for some reason... but this should affect more than one cylinder.

    2 -A small piece of steel missed and left in the underside of the cylinder head. This possibly micro piece of steel would glow like a model airplane's engine resulting in pre-ignition.

    3 - A very small portion of the cylinder head or crankcase (block) sealing surface is faulty which would allow a very small fine mist like spray of water enter the cylinder when under way... normally only when off idle and at a higher rpm.

    Not a cure reply by a long shot... but those are the conditions causing pre-ignition that I've come across in my thirty plus years in the trade.

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    • #3
      Thanks for the reply Joe. Being that this last rebuild I used a whole different block that was already together I think it rules out any finger pointing to the block or it's internal parts. I will look into the timing possibility further though. l think the timing is done through the computer itself on these engines and I've changed computers and still have same issue so I don't think it's timing. But this afternoon I'm going to look into that. Thanks again Joe.

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      • #4
        Update. Took the boat out today to check top RPM's. I only have fuel tanks 1/3 full, no gear on boat, and only me at 185lbs and I know a boat should be tested for props under full load but I didn't wanna put in another 150 gallons of fuel and get 4 guys to jump on for a boat ride. Full RPM's on both engines is 5200. Over propped possibly? Propellor shop locally said my boat should be propped at 15x17 or 15x19 before he even asked what props I had on now. My props are 14&3/4x21. Dealer put them on. CapeHorn manufacture had no recommendations on prop size for me.
        Also this boat is not meant for planing on 1 engine but I ran each engine individually up to 3500rpms just to see if they knocked and both of them did at same RPM's about 3200. Don't know why I did that test but just wanted to see if the other would make same noise if under load and it did. Suggestions?

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        • #5
          What is the top recommended rpm WOT of that engine..... and at what rpm does it hit it's horsepower rating?

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          • #6
            5800 WOT
            Don't know what RPM's it reaches its stated HP. I have a set of 17" props to try. I'll update next few days.

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            • #7
              Sorry Joe, Manual says 5000-6000 WOT, HP is met at 5750rpm's. I ran the 17's and boat ran like a different ride. Smooth on plane and just sounded like they never were bogging down. I hit 6000 RPM's as soon as I went full throttle and that was in a choppy bay and not even trimming. Power tech props said an 18" pitch is what they have used on other Cape Horn 27's and it looks like that's the best choice. However, detonation is still heard at 3200rpms's only, just not as loud and violent as was with the 21" props. Don't know what else to do. Evinrude dealer coming to my boat with his computer to see what adjustments he can make on EMM to possibly get rid of the detonation.

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              • #8
                Hitting its horsepower at 5750 rpm with the top rated WOT being 5000/6000 sounds about right. I checked my books on the older 225hp models and they were almost identical, the difference being that the older models hit their hp at 5500.

                That's cutting it close though as the difference in your case between hitting the hp range (5750) and full throttle allowance (6000) is only 250 rpm and one DOES NOT want to risk exceeding the recommended full WOT setting of 6000 rpm for any length of time..... (BOOM!!).

                Previously, with the wrong props installed (too much pitch), the engine couldn't it's rated rpms... BUT... the throttle was set at full. This sets up a condition that we call in the trade "Coking", pronounced as in "Coke".

                The throttle is wide open BUT the engine is not turning up rpm wise as it should. This results in a build up not of carbon but rather a grayish white waxy looking substance... and a LOT of it within the cylinder. I have personally taken the heads off engines and found amounts of this coking as big as an irregular shaped baseball.

                I wondering if this could be affecting that cylinder. Have you come across this problem at any time?

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                • #9
                  I haven't seen any of that when I've taken my engine apart 2 times. This last rebuild only has a few hours on it mostly just coming up to the detonation sound that I hear and then idling back to the dock to change another part out and try again. I changed out the coils today so I'll run it in the morning and after that I'll switch out the CPS, then PDP, then vapor separator/high pressure pump. Then the whole wiring harness this way when evinrude tech comes I've ruled out a bunch of things.

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                  • #10
                    Swapped CPS and also the PDP this morning and no change. Next step is using different evinrude tech hopefully next week to seek computer update/adjustments.

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                    • #11
                      I see software disc and cable sets on eBay for my engine for 85$. Is this all I need besides a laptop to do some diagnosing?

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                      • #12
                        Sorry to say that I have no idea. Hopefully some other member will jump in here with the answer.... if not, try that question in "iBoats.com and MarineEngine.com

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                        • #13
                          Just about the last thing to do was switch engine wiring harness ***emblies. I removed the harness from the problem engine and was connecting it to the good engine and found a ground wire totally wore through being held together by 2 wire strands. Turns out the 6 injectors are ground to the block by 3 wires (2 injectors per wire) and all three wires connect to a ring terminal that is grounded to the top of the block. The frayed wire also was corroded telling me it's been that way for a while. I cut all 3 wires, put on a new connector and connected them to the block. I have my hopes up that this was the cause of 3 powerheads blown due to cylinder 4 and then cylinders 4&6 last time. I'll update as soon as I finish istalling the harnesses and injectors and get to run it.

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                          • #14
                            Can a bad ground damage these ficht injectors? Could it possibly damage the electric coils located inside the injector?
                            Last edited by Got Twins; 04-11-2017, 10:26 PM.

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                            • #15
                              Time to close out this thread. After 3 blown powerheads I'm pretty sure I found the culprit. Bad injector ground wreaked havoc on my injector I guess causing it to run lean or not at all sometimes. Kills me that computer never threw a code. I can send a video to anyone who wants to see what the ground wire looked like. Was being held together by maybe 2 strands and had corrosion in there which means it was like that for a while. The times I heard detonation I believe was actually the blown cylinder. After every rebuild the engine sounded new for at least a few hours until the knocking noise sounded. By then it was already too late and cylinder was scored. I scoped the cylinder yesterday and sure enough I can see gouge lines on the wall. thanks everyone for all the help. Much appreciated

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